tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post2166052645902397494..comments2024-03-06T04:31:53.093+11:00Comments on Just in CASE: Shepherding a Child's Heart: Wise advice and one key errorTrevor Cairneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10743409298855125040noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-19355386923542140162016-07-14T23:41:39.779+10:002016-07-14T23:41:39.779+10:00The most important question that needs to be asked...The most important question that needs to be asked is not what worked or didn't work in any individual case, but rather, what is the will of God. Tripp and others who hold the same view on spanking have the Scripture on their side and that is all that matters. It is possible to raise good children without spanking them, and it is also possible to raise Criminals by spanking them. There are many factors to raising children, neither Tripp nor I are suggesting that spanking is a quick fix and all that is needed. As you know, Tripp emphasizes communication which is sounds like you did a lot of. The grace of God was with you in raising your children, praise God, but that does not authorize you or anyone else to advocate casting off the commands of Scripture. God graciously blesses us all at times even though we are not following all of Scripture's commands, that doesn't excuse disobedience to the commands. Jesus said, whoever disobeys one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Your friend who regrets spanking her child needs to examine other aspects of her childrearing, and how she spanked, but should not blame the principle of spanking for the poor results in her children's lives. As for following your heart, beware for the Scripture warns that the heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked, who can know it?<br />The Bible never commands us to follow our heart, but rather to submit our hearts and all that we are to the Scripture and the authority of God. Following our hearts is a feel good worldly philosophy that will surely lead us into error. SteveLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04282645239847089458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-30505665755781433822016-07-14T19:11:38.517+10:002016-07-14T19:11:38.517+10:00In everything I have read about spanking young chi...In everything I have read about spanking young children as Tripp advices. I do not understand the need to pull down the child's pants and spank on a bare bottom. What happens if you have a daughter and the father is the one doing the spanking, does the father still spank his daughter when she is 7, 10, 13 on a bare bottom? I feel that would not only be humiliating to the female child, but also crossing a line. How does a new parent know how hard is too hard to spank? I know of parents who are surprised to see bruising on their child's bottom ( which has the most fat then any other part of the body, therefore making it harder to bruise) from all the spanking that took place on a bad day of a typical 2 year old, but still continue spanking in the same matter. How does that make sense? I am a 55 year old Christian woman, who has raised 2 grown sons, 4 of their early years as a single mom. Both always loved the Lord from when they were little, both are now God loving successful men (one a Doctor) and loving husband's to Christian women. Both went through 12 years of Christian schooling, so what they were being taught at home and church was reiterated at school. Both received full ride scholarships to our States University. They never smoked, tried drugs, or drank in their teenage years. They were respectful and well liked not only by their teachers but also by their peers. Guess what? I NEVER EVER spanked my sons as Tripp recommends. Yes I did spank, but for big things, like running into the street,when I told them to stay by me, and I spanked with an open palm of my hand over their pants. I don't think I spanks them more then 4 times each in their childhood. I used time outs, I took the time to talk to them and explain why their behavior was not appropriate. I used appropriate consequences for bad behavior, like, taking their drinking cup away after I explained to them the first time why you don't throw a cup at the dinner table. I didn't spank them for being disobedient and throwing the cup again, they were 2 years old and learning how to eat at a table and it was my job as their Mother to take the TIME to teach them. Which a lot of the time takes longer then spanking them for being disobedient . I'm sorry I just don't see the need to inflict pain on a child, and that is what I feel Tripp is teaching . I know one Mom personally who followed Tripp's advice on spanking with her first child, but not on her last two children. To this day, this mom who is now 50 regrets that she followed the spanking part of Tripp's book on her first child, and she can't undo what she did and her memories of those days. I am not trying to brag about my sons or my parenting style. I was not a perfect Mom and I made mistakes along the way. I am just trying to make a point that you can raise obedient children that turn into great teenagers and then into wonderful men WITHOUT causing them physical pain. I feel Tripp has that part wrong in his book. I feel sorry for young new parents, who don't have the confidence in themselves to just follow their heart and gut and develop their own parenting skills that work best for not only their child but for them. I feel they need to do less spanking and more praying for their child.Christinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-18303783203801363912015-03-03T01:27:51.119+11:002015-03-03T01:27:51.119+11:00Dear Anonymous,
You beg us not to try to "...Dear Anonymous,<br /> You beg us not to try to "interprete the word of God" but then go ahead and do just that by insisting that the rod does not mean to hit or spank in this context. That is your interpretation, and a very flawed one. You only need to read the Proverbs to see that it is flawed. On of the main discipline verses there says, something like, "If you hit him, though he cry out, it will not kill him but will save his sol from hell." Clear as a bell to anyone honestly ready to accept the plain words of Scripture. Unfortunately, you are allowing the culture of 21st century America, which all of those writing on this blog would have to agree has wandered far from it's roots in the Bible, you are letting that culture dictate to you what is decent, normal and right. You need to really read the<br />Bible if you think that God just hugs us when we sin and tells us He isn't happy. I do hope that Trevor, who started this blog will correct you on this point to, studying the Bible as he does. Start by reading Hebrews 12. Let God's word instruct you. <br /> <br />Now Mrs Seigneur,<br /> We are all glad our children have wills, interests, joy and fun.We all like adventure. Have you noticed that the joy and fun and adventure is often interrupted by your children's sin? Before you urge us to take Tripp's book off all church shelves, please read and study and let the Bible instruct you as to the sin nature and the relationship of God with His people. If the Bible doesn't get first place in your thinking soon, your children are in trouble and the hope of joy and adventure will be a crumbling dream. Please read the Bible and submit to it's wonderful truth, that is the best adventure there is. <br />SteveLSteveLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04282645239847089458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-23282807171916677312014-11-08T21:11:45.522+11:002014-11-08T21:11:45.522+11:00Thanks for pointing out the flaws in this book. So...Thanks for pointing out the flaws in this book. So sad that people today, young precious moms and dads who want to do right and who want to raise their children in the Lord, are still looking to this book. Get it off bookshelves of church libraries on homes right away. Enjoy your beautiful children. Be glad they have a will and interests and joy and fun! Adventure with your kids, don't beat them into submissionCornelia Becker Seigneurhttp://www.corneliaseigneur.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-44758794442829246152014-06-22T17:41:58.384+10:002014-06-22T17:41:58.384+10:00I believe that you are all wrong with trying to in...I believe that you are all wrong with trying to interpret the Word of God. Rod in this context is NOT to hit, spank or do physical harm. What it means is to speak and tell the child what he is doing is wrong and open the word of God and explain to him, pray with him and discipline by taking off some privileges or give extra chores and make sure he understand why. Just keep talking and talking and also warn him of his ending if he continue to rebel for he/she is not rebelling against you but God and God will judge him if he will not repent. However, if you hit the child you are teaching the child that it is ok to hit another human being. It does also said in the Word of God that love covers every sin. If they are naughty hug them and tell them that you are not happy about it and God is not happy too. When the Prodigol son came back the Father full of compassion ran and hug him. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-30232930258711654272014-01-24T20:39:06.864+11:002014-01-24T20:39:06.864+11:00You are right that our children have been entruste...You are right that our children have been entrusted to us by God, thus the desperate need to listen to God when He instructs us on how to train and teach them. Let's hear what God says by the inspiration of His Holy Spirit. Proverbs 13:24 "He who withholds his rod, hates his son, but he who loves him, disciplines him diligently." God, not Steve, instructs us to use the rod because we love our children. God uses the rod on us, because he loves us. God defines what a decent person is. In this verse he says that the decent man, who loves his son will discipline him. The man who refuses to use the rod, hates his son, though he may not realize it. That isn't decent. God's word matters, not our "understanding". Prov 3:5-6, "lean not on your own understanding." God has put parents in charge of their children, if they do not have control over these children, they are not going to be able to fulfill God's role for them. Eph. 6 says that Children are to obey their parents. Submission to authority is an absolute must. I invite you to look around at our society and see if submission to authority is not a problem for us. Could this have started in childhood, when these people's parents failed to establish and teach submission to authority. You do need to be in control in your home. If you are not, then you can't be the parent that God expects you to be. You children need your firm authority, as well as gentleness, and the softer virtues of course. Tripp, advocates a balance of all these things. Read his book if you haven't, you will find that it is different than the impression left by many of the comments on this blog. <br />Steve L SteveLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04282645239847089458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-27766413245507555262014-01-24T08:29:24.407+11:002014-01-24T08:29:24.407+11:00Steve - I believe God would never spank a child. ...Steve - I believe God would never spank a child. You are hurting a small, defenseless human being that was entrusted to you by God.<br /><br />Are you sure that you are not just satisfying your own need to be in control?<br /><br />It just does not fit my or most decent people's understanding of loving parenting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-73486722648583654512014-01-23T20:40:36.318+11:002014-01-23T20:40:36.318+11:00No one here has advocated beating children dear an...No one here has advocated beating children dear anonymous. Spanking is not beating. You are falling into the trap of the secular media, who have tried to redefine the word by deceptive coverage. <br />Keep to the Word of God. <br />Steve L SteveLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04282645239847089458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-40858812179126122602014-01-23T09:44:22.679+11:002014-01-23T09:44:22.679+11:00I rather doubt that you are "glorifying"...I rather doubt that you are "glorifying" anyone while beating a child.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-26063836209381208702013-10-16T11:19:41.039+11:002013-10-16T11:19:41.039+11:00Sure are lots of "I" responses in these ...Sure are lots of "I" responses in these comments. When when we learn that it does not matter what you and I think, it matters what God thinks/directs. Spanking IS BIBLICAL when done with a pure heart for God to be glorified.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-83824457143896109732013-07-11T13:23:00.248+10:002013-07-11T13:23:00.248+10:00God uses isolation doesn't He? I don't kno...God uses isolation doesn't He? I don't know what else we would call the separation from God because of sin. So really a time out is very biblical because it is a miniature version of what continuing in a sin-life will lead to. <br />Even in the Hebrews 12 passage used as an example by Trevor above we are given another example of The Lord's discipline; that He allows us to endure hardships. This comes in many different forms depending on what God wants to teach us as individuals; through loss of wealth, possessions, relationships, etc. As parents we may discipline by allowing our children to endure hardships either natural or imposed such as extra housework, yard-work, etc. <br /><br />These are all biblical examples of discipline that while not spelled out with as specific words as physical punishment is in scripture, should be familiar concepts to anyone who has been growing in Christ and the knowledge of scripture for some time. <br /><br />Grace to all; MellissaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-13566947466493510412013-05-18T17:33:50.057+10:002013-05-18T17:33:50.057+10:00Steve, I'm perplexed by your comment. Did you ...Steve, I'm perplexed by your comment. Did you actually read my post? Without wishing to sound like your 3rd grade teacher, please read it again. If you do, you will find reference to many things, including other methods. Am I to assume from your comments that you believe that there is only one method, physical punishment? You seem to have missed my point. TrevorTrevor Cairneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10743409298855125040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-21172359690085335532013-05-18T01:39:19.418+10:002013-05-18T01:39:19.418+10:00I want to make these comments in love for those of...I want to make these comments in love for those of you who keep saying that the Bible leaves the door open for us to choose which method of discipline we use. Could you please list some of the other method's that the Bible recommends? How easy it is to sit there and take pot shots at Tedd Tripp's book. If you have problems with corporal punishment, then please give us an expose including chapters and verses from Scripture that show us the alternatives. Are there any? The methods that many people use today were invented by human wisdom, many suggested by godless psychologists who reject even the existence of God. Freud and the vast majority of the psychology community that has followed him are heavily given toward atheism. So, are you really going to trust what they say? Compare their source of authority with Ted Tripp and you should see the obvious. <br /> The passage in Hebrews 12, clearly teaches that God hurts us with His discipline because He loves us, so those of you who say you could never "hurt" your children, need to familiarize yourselves with the love of God. If physical discipline goes against every fiber of your being, then you need to let God change your being, because that is a very un-Godlike characteristic. The prophets are full of texts that reveal to an open hearted reader, how God inflicts pain for the good of men and nations. Please, read the Bible and save yourselves from the mire of secular opinion that has captured so many of you. <br /><br />Steve LSteveLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04282645239847089458noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-19402428357573242502012-12-19T11:23:30.244+11:002012-12-19T11:23:30.244+11:00Thanks Lance, I hope you continue to enjoy the blo...Thanks Lance, I hope you continue to enjoy the blog and the other CASE resources on our website <a href="http://www.case.edu.au" rel="nofollow">HERE</a>Trevor Cairneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10743409298855125040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-58107063944426250492012-12-19T08:52:57.601+11:002012-12-19T08:52:57.601+11:00I just discovered this blog today while looking up...I just discovered this blog today while looking up information for the book and DVD series by Ted and Paul Tripp. Have to say I'm not getting much done now because I am intrigued and impressed by so many of your articles. :)<br /><br />I really appreciate your thoughts on this particular book and subject. Taking the Proverbs to be authoritative commands only rather than wise sayings mixed in with some commands can get us into a lot of trouble.<br /><br />Overall though I do appreciate the book. Lancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02824263616319752316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-9403943374055283722011-11-15T12:40:41.051+11:002011-11-15T12:40:41.051+11:00Thank you to Anonymous, Julie, Andrea and Angel fo...Thank you to Anonymous, Julie, Andrea and Angel for your comments. It's good to remember that all children and parents are different. This is one of the reasons I stress in the review that the Bible is less clear about the methods we use for parenting than it is with what should be our intent. My great regret with Tripp's book is that he privileges physical punishment over all other methods. I do see a place for physical punishment, but if this were regular I'd encourage parents to reconsider their parenting strategies. I would never use physical punishment to try to harm the child. A slap on the legs was as far as it went in our house (and rarely).<br /><br />Angel asks a number of questions to which I will respond. You suggest that 'rod' in the Bible is often used in terms of striking, but it is also used to mean other things. Even when it is used to mean 'striking' context is important to understand just what that means. Your example of Is 14:29 being used in the sense of striking is interesting. The word 'rod' is used to urge the people of Philistia not to gloat. The rod most likely in this passage refers to the Davidic dynasty, which Ahaz had reduced to a puppet status under Assyria. It might also refer to the Assyrian Empire itself. I don't think you'd want to build a method for parenting based on this as a proof text, except in reminding children that they shouldn't gloat, God hates arrogance (there are better verses for this), judgement (again there are better verses) etc.<br /><br />The examples from Proverbs might be more helpful for parenting methodology. Proverbs 23:13-14 ("Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from death") certainly suggests that physical punishment has a place (which I've acknowledged) and, it rightly suggests that it should be focused on the salvation of our children. <br /><br />Proverbs 29:15 also speaks of physical punishment, but the context here would suggest that perhaps it would be more helpful and relevant when thinking of rebellious youth in a society that is clearly out of control. It speaks of punishment in the wider context of social instability and human rebellion. Some might even use this verse to try to justify bringing back the cane to punish publicly rebellious university students taking part in public protest (I'm NOT arguing for this of course!). This would be more justified than using it argue for using an adult hand or spoon on the bottom of a baby crying for its nappy to be changed.<br /><br />My point with Tripp is basic. He oversteps the reach of Scripture to give prominence to physical punishment from an early age above all other methods. His view that "Biblically, the method is as important as the objectives" is not justifiable. Ensuring our children grow up to know and love the Lord is what is clearly dictated by Scripture, the methods that are to be used are not. <br /><br />Thanks for your comments.Trevor Cairneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10743409298855125040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-65239234436776784412011-11-13T20:31:03.052+11:002011-11-13T20:31:03.052+11:00I just finished Tripp's book and appreciated m...I just finished Tripp's book and appreciated many of his insights. Your idea that "rod" in the Bible doesn't necessarily mean spanking---that was new to me, and I found it an interesting concept to consider. Thank you for making me pause in that respect. <br /><br />After reading your post I looked up "rod" in the Bible. In many places it is coupled with the idea of striking (Isaiah 14:29). In other instances it's described as a tool for measuring (Rev. 11:11). And sometimes "rod" appears to be a metaphor for God's discipline in general (Job 21:9). <br /><br />But I keep coming back to Proverbs 23:13-14 (<i>Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from death</i>) and Proverbs 29:15 (<i>The rod an reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother</i>). Both encourage using the rod, and from my reading of 23:13-14 especially, this sounds like spanking (in the controlled manner Tripp describes---coupled with communication). <br /><br />I see the Proverbs as generally sage counsel. They're not promises that we can claim, but they are wise sayings describing the best way to live. So while God may not be saying "thou shalt spank your child" maybe he is encouraging us to use spanking as a helpful tool, as if he's making a strong recommendation but (as you said) allowing us to choose what works best.<br /><br />I suppose Proverbs 23 could be taken metaphorically, but I'm disinclined to think that at this point.<br /><br />What do you think? <br /><br />I'm the mother of a one-year-old, so I'm only beginning to explore these concepts, by the way.Angelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-86748339733220051512011-10-15T01:14:29.417+11:002011-10-15T01:14:29.417+11:00Thanks for your review of this book. I think peopl...Thanks for your review of this book. I think people who were raised in kind families often overlook the more extreme concepts he puts forth in his book because it contradicts all of the "love and kindness" he explains in other parts of the book. I was raised in a household where "Shepherding a Child's Heart" tapes were constantly played throughout my house, and I was violently abused for 20 years in the name of this book. At one point, Tripp teaches that if a child has a "rebellious" attitude, a parent should shadow them looking for any minor infraction so they can discipline out the bad attitude. This concept alone left me in constant physical and mental horror. When you teach a parent that it is THEIR duty to save their child from hell, and the mode of saving them is the use of the rod, it will be rare for a child NOT to be abused. As humans, most parents will forget the good points of the book but they are left with a physical object, a rod in their hands, and imbued by the book with a duty to "save" their children. In the end, what else could happen but abuse?Andreanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-35023400115767330152011-10-07T01:55:09.255+11:002011-10-07T01:55:09.255+11:00Thanks for the review! I was surprised to see thi...Thanks for the review! I was surprised to see this title on a list of books that promote child abuse, since I've heard it praised by many people. I came looking for a Christian perspective on this book, and I appreciate your insight.Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14651080331604028330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-30991137273088632552011-05-16T12:59:57.355+10:002011-05-16T12:59:57.355+10:00Mr. Cairney,
Our church is doing this study, and b...Mr. Cairney,<br />Our church is doing this study, and bottom line...I don't believe in physically putting my hands on my children to hurt them as I don't believe the 'rod' means a spanking. Moses was given the rod to lead his people...a sign of leadership and teaching-not causing physical harm!<br />I can't even truly, seriously read the chapter on the rod. It makes me sick to my stomach! <br />I could go on and on but you get my point!<br />And I'm a mother of four children ages 29, 26, 22 and 15 and all four are saved and never did I have to take the 'rod' to them!<br />Thanks for your blog!<br />AdriaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-36798917054317377832010-04-29T18:17:46.954+10:002010-04-29T18:17:46.954+10:00Hi Beth,
Thank you for your comments. I like your...Hi Beth,<br /><br />Thank you for your comments. I like your own comment (and your blog). As you can see from my post I don't say that we shouldn't use physical punishment, but rather that the prescriptive approach that Ted Tripp suggests is difficult to support. You can of course build an argument for controlled punishment and even some physical punishment, but I don't see much place for the latter.<br /><br />Thanks for dropping in. You might also like to read my <a href="http://www.trevorcairney.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">'Literacy, families and Learning'</a> blog.<br /><br />TrevorTrevor Cairneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10743409298855125040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-1063596924156210742010-04-29T09:37:23.322+10:002010-04-29T09:37:23.322+10:00What an excellent review, Trevor!
I'd heard o...What an excellent review, Trevor!<br /><br />I'd heard of this book from one friend, and today another friend recommended it. Her recommendation was in response to <a href="http://cbethblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/spanking-why-i-dont.html" rel="nofollow">this blog post</a> explaining why I don't spank.<br /><br />Your review came up near the top of the Google rankings so I checked it out. It's clear to me this doesn't fit the parenting style I feel comfortable with. Your statement that "not all fathers are capable of controlling their anger and avoiding the warnings that Tripp gives about abuse of punishment" was excellent.<br /><br />Thanks for such a great review. I'm going to skip this book. However, I do like what my friend shared with me, about using discipline as a way to teach children about our Father's discipline. That's something I'm going to think about, pray about, and hopefully implement...without using the rod!C. Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06644509313017237164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-23756252752406287982010-03-09T14:11:19.664+11:002010-03-09T14:11:19.664+11:00Thank you for your brave review. I read the bulk ...Thank you for your brave review. I read the bulk of the book and had many of the same conclusions you had. However, I keep meeting people who heartily recommend this book. I appreciate your thoughtful review and reminder to me that there are different paths to parenting and God will guide me and my husband in those that fit our children and family best.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-53942637314417856852010-03-08T21:04:07.145+11:002010-03-08T21:04:07.145+11:00I'm pleased that people keep finding this post...I'm pleased that people keep finding this post and that it has been helpful for readers. Rachel I don't think Tripp suggests that you can remove sin from children through discipline. His point is that children struggle with sin and that parents need to train their hearts not simply try to change their behaviour. <br /><br />Thanks too for your comment Bonnie I still think that Tripp has some good advice but I don't accept his approach to physical punishment. <br /><br />Thank you also to the two recent readers who left anonymous comments,<br /><br />I appreciate all your comments.<br /><br />TrevorTrevor Cairneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10743409298855125040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6160916.post-17836607233503388982010-03-07T15:15:44.766+11:002010-03-07T15:15:44.766+11:00Thank you so much. I just had a conversation with ...Thank you so much. I just had a conversation with a good friend of mine about Tripp's book. I am not comfortable with spanking. Not just because I had some bad spanking experiences as a child, but because now as an adult and what I know of the scriptures I just don't think that using the rod all the time is the best way to communicate the love of God including his graciousness and mercy and how he warned the ones he loved. Anyway, thank you for your thoughts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com